Comments on: Frost Circles https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/ Mon, 27 Feb 2023 20:36:48 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.6.2 By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-649049 Mon, 27 Feb 2023 20:36:48 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-649049 In reply to Dion Silverman.

The key issue is not so much that they are in non-bonding orbitals, it is more that these non-bonding orbitals are singly-occupied (due to Hund’s rule).

This means that these compounds are very similar in behavior to free radicals – except because there are two free radicals, they are what are known as “diradicals”.

So imagine the instability of free radicals, times two.
(The barrier to recombination of free radicals is basically zero, so these types of compounds very readily combine with each other even if they manage to form – they also react rapidly with oxygen)

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By: Dion Silverman https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-649046 Mon, 27 Feb 2023 19:31:42 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-649046 Like Dipita Karmakar, I also do not understand why electrons in non-bonding orbitals are destabilising, making the compound anti-aromatic, rather than just non-aromatic. I would think that these electrons contribute to neither stabilisation or destabilisation.

I also do not understand how I would know from the Frost diagram, why, if I take a 4n+2 system, and remove 2 electrons, the result would be the anti-aromatic system expected from a 4n compound. Because all filled orbitals are stabilising? I’m not sure how to see the aromatic stabilisation or lack thereof in this context.

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-640477 Mon, 17 Oct 2022 14:48:00 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-640477 In reply to AH.

The Frost circle is mostly useful for visualizing what the energy levels will look like.

Once you know that the energy levels look like, then you fill them up with the number of available pi electrons.

When you do this with cyclobutadiene you end up with one doubly-occupied orbital and two singly-occupied orbitals (unstable). But when you do this with benzene you end up with three doubly-filled orbitals (stable!)

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By: AH https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-640461 Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:43:36 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-640461 Just realised my mistake! It’s the number of pi electrons that tell you if it is aromatic or antiaromatic.
4n+2 is aromatic
4n is antiaromatic.

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By: AH https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-640460 Mon, 17 Oct 2022 08:39:08 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-640460 So to conclude: fulfilling all of Huckel’s Rules means a molecule is aromatic or antiaromatic. Drawing a Frost Circle can then determine whether a molecule is aromatic or whether it is antiaromatic.

Is this correct?

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-576352 Wed, 12 Feb 2020 17:55:24 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-576352 In reply to Mike Turner.

Fixed it, thank you!

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By: Mike Turner https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-575949 Wed, 05 Feb 2020 18:20:57 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-575949 TYPO: Note 2 line 1 “The stability arising from antiaromaticity in the cyclobutadiene dication ” should refer to aromaticity.

Overall this is an excellent series of articles.

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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-564371 Wed, 18 Sep 2019 15:08:51 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-564371 In reply to Frosty the Circle.

Very interesting! Also from the paper: “Comparison with all-trans octatetraene indicates that COT2− has a substantial aromatic stabilization energy (25 kcal mol−1) approaching that of benzene (33 kcal mol−1), but this favorable influence is swamped by Coulomb repulsion. “

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By: Frosty the Circle https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-564364 Wed, 18 Sep 2019 13:02:33 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-564364 Your diagram of the cyclooctatetraene dianion shows the added electrons in a non-bonding orbital. With 10 electrons it would obey the numerology of Huckel’s rule but the diagram argues against it with the added electrons in the non-bonding orbitals.

The compound has been made as a disodium salt but the most recent theory is that it exists because it is stabilized by interactions with counterions: J. Chem. Theory Comput. 2013, 9, 4436−4443.

    “Like many multiply charged anions, COT2− exists in isolation only as a short-lived resonance state lying above neutral COT.”
    “….Charge-compensating complexation of COT2−with two sodium cations results in a thermodynamically stable Na2COT compound”
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By: James Ashenhurst https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/2017/05/17/frost-circles/#comment-552020 Tue, 09 Apr 2019 17:29:03 +0000 https://www.masterorganicchemistry.com/?p=10747#comment-552020 In reply to Dipita karmakar.

Cyclobutadienyl di-anion, yes, because it would have six pi electrons. Cyclobutadienyl anion, no, because it can only be formed from deprotonation of C-H and the negative charge (and ensuing lone pair) would be at right angles to the pi system.

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